AH033 - Never Move Again™, a Paradigm Shift in Pharmacy Benefits, with AJ Loiacono

Transcript

Lightly edited for clarity.

On the heels of AH032 - Prescription Rebates: Agreements, Guarantees, and More, with NPC's John O'Brien, PharmD, MPH, and Julie Patterson, PharmD, PhD,

and the announcement of Never Move Again™, we have AJ back in the studio again!

[00:27] Justin Venneri: Hello and thank you for joining us for this episode of the Astonishing Healthcare podcast. This is Justin Venneri, your host and Director of Communications at Capital Rx, and I have our CEO, AJ, in the studio with me again today. We're going to be talking about a new concept that AJ unveiled at our first partner summit earlier in August and is also something that we've pushed out in the press. And you can go to our website and check out Never Move Again™. AJ, thanks for coming on. I'd love to hear from you about what Never Move Again™ is and what the origin of it was.

[00:57] AJ Loiacono: Well, thanks, Justin. I mean, the concept of Never Move Again™ is something that every payer, every plan sponsor -- I don't care if you're an employer, union, health plan -- everyone experiences, is this regret to think that you actually have to change vendors. You think about, oh my gosh, I need to print new cards, new communication, new lettering. I have to transfer prescriptions from one place to another. I have to be concerned about disruption and member confusion.  

And so, everyone is reticent when it comes to moving. You suddenly are like, gosh, I'll do anything to stay. And so what if a plan sponsor never had to move again? You know, this concept of, at the core of what a PBM is, is claim administration, which is managing everything from plan design, eligibility, data exchange, clinical workflows, call center communication, network management, billing, reimbursement, hundreds of administrative tasks. But what sits on top of that is the economics. This network, this mail specialty relationship, this rebate.  

And one of the things that we have observed at Capital Rx over the last seven years is our most sophisticated payers are health plans. Now, these are regional health plans, Blues plans, other health entities, that are sponsoring some sort of plan. This could be fully insured, business, self-insured, Medicare, Medicaid. But a sophisticated payer, like a health plan, moves maybe once every 20 years.

[02:33] Justin Venneri: Right.

[02:34] AJ Loiacono: And the reason why is that they are sophisticated buyers. They have different network arrangements. They can consider different rebate partners. They can consider different mail specialty. But at the core is their claim administration. And I thought to myself, we should bring this concept to both the employer market and the target market for this are jumbo employers.  

You know, I often say a large employer group is often a health plan unto itself. So, these are for 50,000 employees and up many times you have to be a very sophisticated payer and of a large size to move in this direction. But once you do, you never have to move again, because the concept is that if you have the right administrative platform, which is our Judi health plan system -- we need to call it Judi Health. And our Judi Health platform is this integrated solution that gives you full control, the best level of service, but it's an independent claim processing partner. And now you can apply whatever you wish to do to achieve your goal of better savings, better service, better outcomes in a solution set that is proven and scalable.  

One of the beautiful things about Capital Rx is our proven scale of our solutions. They are used by tens of millions of people now. And we thought what better way than to really embrace a movement that we're seeing in the market, which is people seeking an independent claim processor that is free of conflicts of interest to provide the solution.

[04:17] Justin Venneri: So, at the core of Never Move Again™, we have, Judi, the adjudication platform. What else comes with a, the core package? And then outside of the relatively more sophisticated employer groups out there, are there any other logical buyers for this?

[04:33] AJ Loiacono: Yeah, I think let's start with the target market. As I mentioned, large payers are really your target. And so, this could be large employer groups. These are definitely health plans and health systems on some level. The other area is the TPA marketplace, where a TPA, you could think of it, has hundreds or thousands of small groups that together represent a large purchasing group that could oftentimes be 50,000, 100,000, hundreds of thousands of lives.  

And so I call it the bookends of the market. So aggregators of small market TPAs are absolutely a perfect partner for this solution because they can just obviously operate a seamless delivery for their customers and have an interchange of different networks, mail, specialty, whatever they're looking for. The other end obviously going to sophisticated payers.  

But what's included in it? So of course, all the administrative workflows are there for you. You also have your services. So these services include call center. We have an award-winning call center. We have the highest net promoter scores. We have a 24/7/365 domestic call center, multilingual. And you couldn't ask for a better service group.  

Now, the other part of that is clinical services -- that's prior authorization and clinical workflows. But we're interchangeable. So if someone says, look, I want to do my own prior authorization -- so you're a health plan. Absolutely. You can do your own, you could use Judi, you could plug in your solutions, but you can do that solution. Someone could say, hey, look, I love your team, but I have an existing partnership. I want to use this other group, by all means. This is the culture of yes, that we talk about in our organization. If you truly are independent and you want to provide the best foundational framework, you can now give them all of the choices that they want.  

So I always like to point out, the more sophisticated the payer, the more services you can take on. So if someone says, hey, we are a health plan, and we would like to do our own call center, our own prior authorization, our own network, again, we have handling core claim administration, and your different departments are interfacing with Judi, but the whole point of it is your core, you never have to move again. You never have to reissue cards, you never have to worry about transfer or costly implementations. If there is financial incentive in the market, you like a partner, you don't have to move your entire operation to gain it, because our organization doesn't make money on drug spend. We're the best claim administration suite and service provider out their hands down, and we sit on the most advanced technology stack. And our point is, let's give the market what it's been looking for.  

This is a really important point that I want to make. Over this seven years, I saw health plans leading the way. What I'm seeing in the last 30 days is I have 3 jumbo payers that have all gone out to market, and they're looking for claim administration only. They have, I think, a combination of legal concerns from some of the lawsuits that are occurring. And this is from ERISA -- Section 408(B)(2) on disclosures on compensation and fair and reasonable compensation for the people providing those healthcare services --  and people being sued, like J&J and Wells Fargo, and others now will have similar cases, and they're looking for an independent processor that doesn't make money on drug spend. Because at the core of a lot of these cases, if there's an error and someone's making a flat administrative fee, let's just say it's $4 or $5 per claim, full service. And if there's an error, it's still a $4 or $5, nothing changes. It's a flat administrative fee. If someone makes an error and they made $30,000, it's never in the other direction. And that's the inherent conflict of interest. And I think this is the other driving force, which is, I think people are starting to understand, I need to separate church and state -- whatever the analogy you wish to use --  which is the core responsibility for any fiduciary under ERISA, is to provide a benefit, fair and reasonable, and to be free of conflict. That administrator, they're not making money on my membership by making bad decisions.  

So, by separating these two parts now, you have a really powerful solution, which is you have an independent platform. You are now, what I would say protected, as a fiduciary, because clearly your processor is only incentivized to provide great service. None of their decisions, there's a better financial outcome by selecting a more expensive drug, or reclassing a drug or repacking it, or the hundreds of other “accidents” that happen in the traditional PBM industry that only benefits the traditional PBM. And on the other side, you're free to go to market and select different networks, select different mail and specialty partners, select different rebate partners, select different clinical programs, connect with any point solution. You know, very quietly, our company connects with over 600 unique entities we push and pull data with. And these are point solutions, clinical solutions, prior authorization groups, outcomes groups, data, warehouses, you know, analytics teams, stop loss, reinsurance groups. We do not charge, and we have a secure protocol that is available to anyone. So, if you want to add anyone, it's very easy.

[10:38] Justin Venneri: You've been talking about this coming divide between administration and fulfillment and being a pure administrator for as long as I can remember, but for sure, since, I think it was ViVE in 2023, when you were on stage and you clearly laid this out. So if we look at the pieces of this, you get the call center, you get Judi, with CAA compliance and the fiduciary responsibility. Can you dig in there a little bit and peel that back for listeners and explain kind of the aligned financial model? I think as a given the no conflicts of interest with drugs bend you just described. But what else goes into that piece of the puzzle?

Related Content

• ViVE 2023 Highlights: What's Behind the Price Tag of Medication
• Capital Rx Launches Never Move Again™, Enabling Self-Funded Plan Sponsors to Perpetually Access the Best Drug Prices Without Ever Having to Reimplement a Plan

[11:12] AJ Loiacono: Certainly, I mean, I think there's added pressure to anyone who has a self-insured plan right now. The pressure here is there's becoming a test, if you will, of are my members receiving truly consistent lower prices?  

But the inherent problem with traditional PBM models is one, the more expensive the drug, the more money a traditional PBM makes, because they make money on drug spend. That's a real problem, because if you notice in the claims data, the errors are always in favor of the PBM, predominantly. And there's example after example of this behavior, including the more recent congressional committee on PBM oversight, had thousands, I felt, examples of overpriced drugs, or markups, or margins that were in the. Not just hundreds, but 1,000%, 10,000% markup, 30,000% markup. It was insane.

[12:19] Justin Venneri: Excess supply too, right?

[12:20] AJ Loiacono: Oh, yeah. And I think this is going back to this test. If you are an employer group and you have a self-insured benefit, the Consolidated Appropriations Act from 2021 basically amended ERISA very quietly, and said, hey, in 408(b)(2), they created the subsection B, that says, now you need to consider not just reporting the compensation on anyone who provides a healthcare service for your membership, but is it fair and reasonable?  

And so back to, there's a burden of proof and it doesn't look great with a traditional PBM, because if you look at six years of claims data, it looks like drug prices are changing every hour of every day in every pharmacy, for every drug. And this is a complete lie. That is not how drug pricing works in the United States. Drug pricing is incredibly stable. And I've talked about this hundreds of times. Branded product changes twice a year. You could set a clock to it -- January and July. And generic drugs deflate gently based upon the purchasing schedule of the end pharmacies.  

And so, my point here is, why is there this artificial variability? And it's purely for profit. No one would price a product this way. And, you know, you've heard me talk about this before, my “Tylenol Rule.” I say, don't go to the pharmacy counter. Go to the over-the-counter section and reach for a bottle of Advil or Tylenol. And the moment you grab that bottle of Tylenol, something magical happens in the US healthcare system. Doesn't matter if you're insured or uninsured. You work for the largest employer, the smallest, it's the same price. And if someone comes in ten minutes later, it's still the same price. And the price will not change until actual supply and demand and market forces demand that change. And I always want to make that very clear that that's how most market dynamics that are free and efficient, with buyers and sellers communicating on price. And more importantly, if you were to cross the street and grab a bottle, you know, from someone else, it's plus or minus, like a few percentage points. No one's selling the same 60 tablet bottle for $130.

[14:27] Justin Venneri: Definitely not.

[14:28] AJ Loiacono: And no one is saying it's super original Tylenol and it sells for $16,000.

[14:35] Justin Venneri: Reclassify it.

[14:36] AJ Loiacono: But we see this all the time when you go to the pharmacy counter, you're literally spinning a roulette wheel in a traditional PBM. Am I today's winner or loser in the us healthcare system? And it's not just price variability. I mean, I often joke, if you were to look at six years of claims data on the commonly dispensed drug like Atorvastatin, there's thousands of different prices over the course of that period. Why? It's not because the price of the drug was jumping around. It's what they believe, like casino odds. If I have a 96% chance of the patient at the register accepting whatever I charge, why wouldn't I play this game?  

But more importantly, it's often hidden. So if there's like a copay of like a flat $10 or $20 or whatever it may be, you don't necessarily see this as the patient and your plan sponsor is getting killed by this price variability. The only time a patient sees it is if you have coinsurance or deductible plans, which, over the last ten years, more and more employer groups have moved to some form of a deductible. But the point is that is exposing them to this variability and that is one of the things that has become, I think, a real problem and people are picking up on it.  

And so back to the point which is employers now are tasked with defending this plan that they have and that it's fair and reasonable, but if their claim processor is in conflict, that the claim processor is making money on drug spend, and it seems like the errors only favor the PBM, there's this artificial variability that does not look good. And then there's this other element that even cash prices in the market are beating funded rates and that should not be because the best rates are given to funded benefit sponsors. So the employer obviously is now being tasked for the first time to making sure that they have set up a benefit that is free of conflict, fairly priced. But if there is an error or there is an issue, they can now pass the test of saying I've done everything correctly. This is just, you know, an isolated issue or an error that will be fixed, but no one is going to be pushing back unless you are with a traditional PBM that's making spread, variable claim pricing. This is not a good look.  

And the defense is like well, this is the way it's always worked. And then the other part of the defense is, well if you really want the low price you have to ask. And I'm just like what is this defense? So, if you don't want to be taken advantage of, you need to make it known. I would imagine if you have an independent processor, again, Capital Rx on our Judi Health platform, you never have to worry about this again. And more importantly, getting back to our point, you'd never have to move again.

[17:36] Justin Venneri: So the data piece of the puzzle, to see all of these prices you're talking about, to understand where the mistakes are. And it's always been our position that it plans data. So, can you talk a little bit about the data aspect of Never Move Again™?

[17:50] AJ Loiacono: Sure. The first point that you're making is an important one, is it's the plan sponsors data. I can't tell you how many times in my career either responding to an RFP or just talking to a new potential customer, they'll be like, well, my PBM won't give me my full data because it's proprietary. I'm like, it's proprietary? It's your data! You have a fiduciary responsibility to access your data.  

And then they'll even say crazier things like, hey, can I get a copy of your invoice so I could see the breakout of your claims spend versus your ancillary fees, like prior authorization, subrogation, you know, lettering. And they're like, no, they tell me, I can't give that to you. And I would be like, your bill is proprietary? And people ask me all the time, why am I asking for the bill? There, oftentimes, is a very big difference between the claim file I receive and the actual billables. The claim file will total, let's just say, $60 million in drug spend, and the invoice will show $72 million. And I'll be like, are there claims missing? Are there services attached to it? And why is it so hard to access data that legally is yours? You are the fiduciary. There is no reason why anyone should get -- and then there are some consultants that say even crazier things. They're like, this is a special deal that we have through our coalition product or our services, and no one can see it. And I'm like, if your deal is so good, shouldn't everyone see it? I don't understand this mentality.  

But more importantly, getting back to the core issue is, the fiduciary, the plan sponsor, the employer group, union, municipality, government entity, whoever you are, you own your data. So, your claim processor should not just be giving you access to your claim data and secure accessible area, obviously, to run reporting, to access, download, etc. But in addition to that, all data related to your plan. I was talking to a payer group the other day, they've been waiting for six months to get what's called the “extract” of their formulary, which is on a claim level basis what their formula is. I went to Judi and I said, would you like it emailed to you? Would you like to download it here? Would you like to look at? They're like, you just did in 5 seconds, what I still can't get with this big three PBM over the last six months. And are they unable or unwilling? You know, unable, I don't have the technology to do what you're asking or unwilling, because I don't want you to see what we're discussing. Neither answer is good.  

And so our point with Never Move Again™ is independent, unbiased. We have nothing to hide. So it's not just your claim data, your formulary data, your clinical outcomes data, your prior authorization, approval and declination rates. It's your 835 reimbursements to the pharmacy, it's our global reimbursements to the network. Because a lot of times people will be like, hey, what I charged you is what I returned. And you know, is what you charged is what I reimburse. So that's, that's transparent and pass through. I go, unless I could see what everyone else is reimbursing to the pharmacy. If my rate is the worst, what was I? I was the sacrifice to giving someone else better rates. And people don't understand these concepts, but the way to just get rid of the conflict and the myth is to give them everything. You have access to anything you want. And that's what a fiduciary should demand, because if they don't demand it and get it, someone is going to take them to court, and it is not going to go well for them in the future.

[21:33] Justin Venneri: Got it. Earlier you mentioned the 600+ third parties Judi connects with -- data exchange and, you just mentioned it again, the clinical services. Part of my conversation with Nick Van Hook on our commercial team, he mentioned some of his clients that he works with have relatively more sophisticated clinical resources on their teams, so they can jump in and do some of these things themselves. Can you talk a little bit more about the ability to plug and play point solutions clinical services and then how that access works with those on Judi.

[22:05] AJ Loiacono: I always want to make it clear, is if someone requires full service, you want to use our clinical and PA team, you want to use our call center, lettering, support, etc., we're here for you. We have that. But if someone says, to your point, I'm sophisticated, or I have an existing strategic partnership with someone, we don't care. And what I mean by that is my job is to delight my customer in giving them the framework to do anything. They should only be bound by their creativity, to be honest with you, and their responsibility -- compliance and regulatory and other areas.  

But my point here is that if someone says I would like to use a point solution for diabetes management and one for fertility, and I would like to do my own PAs globally or in these therapeutic categories, I have a third party, I do it directly. Our job is to say yes, and I am able to facilitate that request without cost and efficiently. That is what a good platform operator is at the core. This is what Judi Health has evolved into over these seven years, which is we do this for our sophisticated payers. We should continue to broaden and allow large employer groups, TPAs, and even middle market or regional health plans also benefit from this same type of capability.  

I also want to point out if one of our existing customers would be like oh my gosh, I caught the podcast, this is amazing, I'm already a customer, can I do this? They already know the answer. My answer to all of my payer customers is the same: How may I help you?

[23:41] Justin Venneri: And then the network. We've talked a bunch about this more recently with rebates. Obviously, it's a huge focus in every state legislature and in Washington DC. Everybody has a network, right? What does network flexibility mean?

[23:56] AJ Loiacono: Going back to the core, we don't own fulfillment assets, we do not make money on drug spend, we are not a charter member of a GPO, and we've chosen this route because we believe independence is critical as a claim processing technology and solution. I think where we've discovered a real opportunity is being flexible with our partner. So if someone says, hey, I like your -- we use NADAC, National Average Drug Acquisition Cost, for our retail network -- and someone's like I like that, but I want to do something else on top of it or next to it, or for these different groups or I don't even want to use your NADAC network, I would like to use something else. I have a partnership with someone. My response is the same: how may I help you?  

And we do this today. I have large health plans obviously that have their own retail network. You know, we hold paper with probably dozens of different mail and delivery services, including specialty fulfillment partners. So, if someone says hey look, I'm a new customer, we would like to consider using these two mail solutions, this delivery solution, this local delivery solution. I would like to specialties. My answer is how may I help you, again? And I think the key in our ability to agree and be open minded is, again, because we look at this and say at the core, our job is to be the best administrative service. And the modern healthcare and pharmacy framework is becoming this kind of unbundled marketplace where the sophisticated payers are seeking best in class and the ability to be flexible year over year or multi year, but again, being able to capture that value or to engage with these different service providers. If you have a pure play administrative platform, you could do anything and still continue to run RFPs with your consultants, but you're focused now, not on your chassis, you're focused on what's my best retail option for this customer? What are my best mail partners for this customer? What are my best clinical programs for this customer, specialty, whatever it may be, everything is on the table and this is where the market is headed.  

I do not believe in coincidence. Coincidence is a singular event. I have three large payers that are running the same exact bid with three different consulting groups running it, but it is the same exact request: I am looking for you to respond as a claim administrator. I am running a separate RFP for my rebates and specialty. And I love this bid, I absolutely love it. And because it's going to give absolute control, best in class services, best in class performance. And more importantly, going back to, you know, what I would say compliance is, they are going to now be able to say, I am free of any conflicts in my administration of this plan.  

And this is extraordinary, I think, because you need two data points to begin to get a trajectory or a coordinate and you get three. I'm starting to get a trend. And the fact that it's happened in the last 30, 60 days, this is exploding in this direction. And again, what you normally see is first movers are typically the larger, more sophisticated payers. And this is why we're seeing jumbo payers, you know, 50,000+, you're seeing jumbo health plans doing this. And we're starting to engage with TPAs in the same exact concept, which is they are looking for flexibility, but they're also looking for some sort of safe harbor to be like, I am free of conflict.

[27:51] Justin Venneri: So, we've talked about the customer support aspect of it, talked about obviously the technology platform underlying it, the compliance aspect, data storage, the quote unquote modular services, how you can plug and play things, you know, the network and the financial alignment. So that's all there. What are you most excited about next?

[28:10] AJ Loiacono: I'm excited about, one, where we're actually delivering the solution today and continuing to grow. I mean, I think this is a moment in time I've been waiting for. And I used to have an old business partner that used to talk about perfect star alignment. It was one of his favorite phrases. And, you know, the perfect star alignment is regulatory scrutiny from the FTC. It's legislative concerns, both from committees and legislative action, writing bills to kind of police or rein in some of this misbehavior that's been ongoing for far too long in the industry. You're also looking at legal pressure where these cases are emerging. For the first time, self-insured entities are being sued by their own employees because of these business models and practices. And at the core of it, I keep using the word or phrase conflict or conflicts of interest.  

I think you're also seeing technology where our Judi platform is the first modern claim administration platform. And it's a platform as a service. It meets the highest scale and security standards. But more importantly, this technology didn't exist. But you have a company now that has delivered this technology to the market, and it is proven, it is being used by, again, tens of millions of people are using this technology.

But you also now have something where you have a company that's willing to support this movement. Our organization, Capital Rx, we wouldn't be able to deliver a concept like Judi Health, because it's not just the tech, it's our philosophy. You know, to give the country the infrastructure it needs for the healthcare we deserve. We are free of conflict. We're independent. I just want to help all of my payer partners, from health plans all the way down to the TPA market.  

And so you need the other part of this perfect star alignment. You need the right ethics, the right values to go into this mix, the right technology. You needed this compliance, litigation pressure, regulatory oversight. And this is a pressure cooker. And it's continuing to exert pressure to change behavior. We are now very well positioned to not just service the first movers already adopting this model, but everything that comes next. And I think it is very, very, very difficult, if not impossible, because, remember, the major players in this segment are publicly traded. Their fiduciary obligation is to their shareholders. Unless they're going to their shareholders and saying, we're writing down pharmacy margins by 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, nothing is changing. And so our point is, we're the leader in this segment. And what's so exciting is we're seeing it unfold right in front of us in real time. Everything that we worked to do over the seven years is, back to this perfect star alignment, coming to fruition.

[31:06] Justin Venneri: And that begs a final question from me, AJ. When you talk about margins, I always kind of go to the brass tacks, right. So if everybody has this new core in place and can see in their data what's going on, and they can make changes where they think they need to or offer the benefit the way they think they need to for their membership, what sort of savings do you think plan sponsors, plan fiduciaries, can expect to see with the increased efficiency and flexibility of a solution like this?

[31:35] AJ Loiacono: Well, I always want to be fair. I have different types of customers, and you always have to begin with the objective of each customer. I have what I will call wealthy customers that have, what I would say, very generally, generous benefit plans. And their goal is to provide the best patient access, the affordability. So oftentimes these plans do not have any type of high copay, coinsurance, certainly no deductible. And their goal is focused on clinical outcomes or longitudinal data that shows healthcare improvement, not just medication possession ratios, like, hey, my members have high adherence, that's your medication possession ratio, but also that they're getting better. So, I'm able to follow this cohort in the medical data. So, we do ingest medical data, we do do this with our customers, but this is one type of customer.  

Now let's go to the opposite end. I might have, you know, a struggling union or municipality, and every penny matters for sustainability, for their funded benefit. And they're looking to save money, they're looking to control costs, they're looking to reduce trend, but still want to obviously provide their members with a high-quality service experience, still have access to medication, but they want to be responsible not just to the membership but to the fund itself. And so they are looking for trend management and cost savings. And so, you know, on the opposite end of the scale, it's not so much what the number is because what am I coming from? Someone's been with a traditional PBM for 15-18 years, renewing? That could be significant, the number in the savings, someone goes out every three years to bid. Maybe there’s less savings. But my point is its sustainable savings.  

We have customers that have been with us now five, six years and have six years of negative trend. Thats unheard of in our industry. And I think this is a crucial part of the future of healthcare, which is it's not cookie cutter. We're running an RFP and its same. I mean, this is fascinating to me is we respond to hundreds of RFPs every year. Now, very rarely do we communicate with the customer at the front end of the RFP process and say what am I solving for? Everyone just assumes its lower costs, reduced trend, whatever it may be. But that's not always the case. I think what we're starting to see again with this concept for sophisticated payers on Never Move Again™, what are we trying to solve for? But what I do know is our platform in alignment will always deliver the result that you're looking for.

[34:12] Justin Venneri: Got it, AJ. Well, this is super exciting and I'm so glad you could come on and explain everything to us. I would love to have you back, see how things are going. Any parting thoughts?

[34:22] AJ Loiacono: This is definitely the future: Never Move Again™. I often say what's old is new. If you looked at the history of the PBM industry when it started to really take off in the early ‘90s, PBMs didn't make money on drugs spent. They were independent, non-vertically integrated claim processors whose job was to administrate claims on behalf of their payers for flat fees. At the turn of the century, I think this mission became clouded and distorted in a quest for profit that was unhealthy and has basically brought the industry to its knees to this reckoning. And so Never Move Again™ is a refreshing rebirth for this industry. It is the future of this industry. We're going to close a dark chapter and move forward to what I think is going to be the best two decades or more of healthcare in the United States.

[35:17] Justin Venneri: Good stuff. All right AJ, well have a great rest of your day and as I said, I'll link a bunch of stuff in the show notes related to Never Move Again™ and can't wait to have you back on this. Talk about some of the success with this next year.

[35:28] AJ Loiacono: Thank you. Talk soon.

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